Casino Steel Interview 19 September 2000

Any others?

No just the Stones.

What inspired you to become a musician?

Basically because I was a rebel and nothing appealed to me, nothing at all. I was a little too young for Jerry Lee and Chuck Berry and all that and at the beginning of the 60’s there wasn’t anything. So when the Stones came along it was perfect, absolutely perfect.

You were the vocalist in a band in 1965 which included Bjorn Nessjoe on bass?

Yes that was the first band I was in and I was about 12 years old I suppose. It was while we were at school and we did cover versions of the Stones and all that.

Were you writing songs at that time?

No not really but it was around that time when I first started writing songs.

You then joined a band called Jane in 1966 which had Geir Waade on drums?

Yeah we were playing Cream and that sort of stuff at that time. I was still at school so it wasn’t that serious.

You were then in Tom And The Wild Set between1967 and 1969?

Yeah we were starting to get more serious by then and we were playing gigs. That band was quite good, we were doing James Brown and that sort of stuff. Tom was the singer and he was sort of a James Brown kind of singer. We won some local competitions and we were playing loads of gigs at the time.

Were you playing any of your own material?

No it was very much Stax type of stuff.

After that you moved to London and changed your name to Casino Steel?

Yes I think it was 1 January 1971 when I moved to London. I changed my name after I met Andrew Matheson because everyone changed their names at that time; even the English changed their names! I mean obviously I couldn’t be called Stein Groven in that type of band so I had to find a good name.

So how did you come up with Casino Steel?

We drove past a Casino on Edgware Road and I thought that sounds good. My first name is Stein (pronounced "stine") and the Scottish they pronounce it "steen", it’s a Scottish name. So I thought that’s a great name Stein ("steen") Casino. And Andrew said "no it should be Casino Steel" and so that was that.

Then with Andrew Matheson and Lou Sparks you formed The Queen in 1971?

Yes that’s right and we used to play the Café Des Artistes in Fulham Road; we were the regular band on there and then "the" band Queen appeared. I can’t remember what they were originally called but they’d changed their name to Queen. We had a gig at the Marquee under the name of The Queen and Freddie Mercury came up to me and he hit me. He said that we would have to change our name and I said, "Fuck you" but then they had a hit so we had to change our name. They were also regulars at the Café Des Artistes but they were doing cover versions at the time, "Route 66" and all that sort of stuff.

So how did the Hollywood Brats come about, was it simply a change of name?

Yeah basically it was. We played that gig at the Marquee and then Laurie O'Leary who ran the Speakeasy club saw us and he wanted us to play the Speakeasy club and we became a regular band there. Ken Mewis saw us as well, with Laurie O’Leary I think and he used to be Andrew Loog Oldham’s right hand or was it his left hand! But they liked us, Ken became our manager and we became the regular host band at the Speakeasy. We also got a deal with NEMS.

The Hollywood Brats signed a deal with NEMS?

Yes and we recorded an album and everyone hated it of course so we never got to sign the deal. We thought we were the greatest band in the world and I still do think that the Hollywood Brats were a great band. Unfortunately the only person who really liked us was Keith Moon. He used to be at the Speakeasy all the time and he really loved the Brats but everyone else hated us because we were so outrageous. Because we couldn’t get a deal in England I went back to Norway with the masters and managed to negotiate a deal with Mercury Records. They released our album "Grown Up Wrong" in 1975 I think, after we’d split up.
We went to Montreal to try to get something going over there because we couldn’t get anything going in England. Unfortunately we couldn’t get out of Montreal because it was the Olympics and they hated us there as well of course. At the time they were always speaking French; they hated anything that was English or American. They were all clean and the town was all clean because of the Olympics and so we just got stoned. I hated every second in Montreal so I eventually went back to London.

The Brats were similar to the New York Dolls. Did they influence you or were you totally separate?

We were actually totally separate from the Dolls and we’d never even heard of them. But then Laurie O’Leary became their English manager so he asked the Dolls to come over and that’s the first time we met them. We heard their first album and obviously we thought it was crap because we thought we were so much better. Unfortunately nobody knew who the hell we were except for the regular crowd at the Speakeasy.

Were you disappointed that "Grown Up Wrong" was only released in Scandinavia?

Yeah because we recorded it in 1972/73 and we were gonna take over the world so we were obviously very disappointed. We had split up by the time the album was finally released.

What were your favourite tracks from the album?

Anything from that album, I think it’s brilliant. "Sick On You" of course is a classic. Not many people know it’s a classic but I do!

I’m sure they do.
When did you record the "Whatever Happened to the Hollywood Brats" album and "Rough Mixes" EP?

The EP was recorded around the same time as our first album. I think the second Brats album was recorded in 1979 or something. That second album was a mistake. It should have been an outrageous disgusting album but it wasn’t because by then we were trying to do something clever which we should never have tried. I didn’t like the album, it was a mistake.

Would you like to see it released on CD?

Some of the tracks but not as a complete album because it’s not representative of what the Brats really were.

You made a video for "Little Ol’ Wine Drinker Me"?

We did the video at the same time as I made a couple of videos with Gary Holton. I think it was at Dingwalls or the pub next door. Gary and I were called Lip Service at the time. It was before we became Holton/Steel and before we had released anything. I think one of the videos Gary and I did was "Goodnight Irene". I can’t remember what else we did.

How did the Brats finish?

Well I went back to London and Andrew became a professional footballer in Canada. Lou Sparks, the drummer became a biker and Brady well he’s still doing something today.

How did you meet Matt Dangerfield?

Andrew came to visit me in London and Malcolm McLaren called us up because he had flopped in the States with the Dolls when they tried to do that Communist thing. He said he had a new project and he wanted to see if we were interested in it. So we had a meeting with him and he told us about this new project called the Sex Pistols and Andrew stood up and said, "Fuck you this is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard" and left the room so I had to leave as well.
So we hung around my flat in Paddington and Geir Waade, Tony James and Mick Jones came round because they were fans of the Hollywood Brats; Mick and Tony had a copy of the "Grown Up Wrong" album. They more or less introduced me to Matt up in Warrington Crescent because he had a rehearsal room and studio. He asked if we wanted to be involved in a project called London SS which stood for London Social Security. We went up to have the rehearsal and Andrew thought it was disgusting because Mick Jones couldn’t play so he left the building. I got to know those people and quite enjoyed it and then John came along. Geir was still there and we formed the Boys.

When did you start writing with Matt?

That came naturally because I used to write with Andrew so I was always used to writing with someone else. Andrew was into the Kinks and I was into the Stones so that worked perfectly. Matt was into the Beatles and so we worked very well together. It suited me fine and Matt as well so it was very natural.

How did your writing partnership work?

Well Matt wrote the majority of the lyrics because I couldn’t write English lyrics very well.

What songs did you play with London SS?

We played Stones covers and Pleasant Valley Sunday by the Monkees and that Cilla Black song.

"You’re My World"?

Yes that’s right. Of course they were our versions.

Have you got any London SS demos?

No Matt and Barry Jones I think will have them. I’m not sure what happened to them. I’ve not heard them for many years.

How did The Boys become a band?

We hung around Matt’s place and drank at The Warrington in Warrington Crescent. John came along and we all liked him. Matt knew John from Leeds anyway so it was easy. John knew Jack and Jack knew Duncan and that was it basically. Everyone else from London SS were also forming bands like the Damned, the Clash and Generation X.

Who thought of the name?

John as far as I remember or possibly Geir.

Where did you play?

The Hope and Anchor, Nags Head and other pubs.

What were the Boys like live at that time?

We were a beat band but we were very aggressive and very fast. Obviously in some sort of way we were very influenced by the Hollywood Brats so we were a cleaner version of the Brats I suppose. I enjoyed it because of the tempo and the action all the time and also being a part of the whole environment with the Clash, the Damned and all the other bands. We were a contingent totally different from the South London contingent like Siouxie and the Banshees, Sex Pistols and those people. In a funny sort of way we were all hoping we would make it so it was good fun.

You mentioned that the Boys were influenced by the Brats?

I think the Brats influenced them all. I know the Clash and Generation X were because it was the only album they liked to play. The Brats and the Dolls, there was nothing else at that time.

How long was it before record companies started paying attention?

Quite quickly actually. I think we were the very first band to get a deal. We could also have been the first punk band to have released anything but we weren’t because NEMS didn’t believe that this sort of thing was gonna be big at all. When the Damned released "New Rose" things started to happen. The Clash got a deal and we still hadn’t released our album. It was finished and ready to release but nothing happened. They finally released it after everyone else. We came into the charts at Number 50 and then Elvis died and we were fucked.

Why did you sign to NEMS?

They were the only record company who wanted to sign anything at the time of that type of stuff, I mean the Clash couldn’t get a deal and the Damned couldn’t get a deal. No punk band could but we got a deal long before them. Then the following started to come along and it started to grow in popularity and the others got signed but we had already signed a deal with NEMS so it was a big mistake. It was also a question of having some money because they offered us £12 a week or something, which we thought was a fortune and they gave us a place to stay. Ken Mewis had a lot to do with it because he was our manager.

How quickly did you realise you’d made a mistake?

We never did at the time as we were just enjoying ourselves. It was only a few years later we realised, they were the Mafia! We were treated alright by these Italians who came along and said "Hey Boys come and have a drink on us" and we thought it was knockout that they’d buy us pints. They were absolutely crap.

How quickly did the band’s relationship with NEMS deteriorate?

We couldn’t really blame NEMS for Elvis dying. Of course it was their fault they didn’t release the album earlier but we thought we’d give them another chance so I think we re-signed with them for the second album "Alternative Chartbusters" and they did one release gig and that was it. But in a funny sort of way we were a little bit cleverer than the others because we won an advertising campaign that year. It was brilliant all the "50 million fans can’t be wrong" and all that as well as the tour dates with Rome Coliseum and Tokyo and all that sort of stuff which was great; it was really funny. Some of the disc jockeys on the radio were picking up on it and we were getting some reasonable airplay and we couldn’t understand why it didn’t sell or the shops didn’t have the albums in stock. We didn’t know the business so we didn’t know it was NEMS fault. We then started to realise that there was something drastically wrong and we found out that the only reason they’d signed the Boys in the first place was because they could use us as a tax deduction. They weren’t interested in us at all because they had Black Sabbath and some other artists they were interested in as well as the back catalogue from Immediate.

How did "I Don’t Care" become chosen as the first single?

I don’t really know. I think that it was one of the first songs we wrote and it was an easy song to record. We recorded it in some terrible studio in Regent Street and it was done in a day including the mix and everything. We thought it was great to have a single out and it had to be something that we could do quickly.

Were you pleased with the finished recording?

Yeah I think so.

"Soda Pressing" is an awesome B-side. Did the band regard it as a strong song in 1977?

No I don’t think we realised at the time what a good song it was.

Around that time The Boys appeared on stage at the Marquee with Marianne Faithful?

She owes me five quid! She couldn’t afford to get the taxi down to the Marquee so I had to pay it. She was really down and out and nothing was happening with her career and she was also on NEMS. Ken suggested that we ask her up on stage to make her a little more trendy and hip and give her something to do. And we thought yeah sure I didn’t mind Mick Jagger’s old girlfriend up on stage with me. I thought it was knockout.

What did you play with her?

She did Chuck Berry’s "Memphis Tennessee". We got slaughtered in the music press for having her on stage with us but we didn’t care. At that time all the bands were into hating everything that had anything to do with established musicians. Personally I was never into that.

To promote "I Don’t Care" you went on a national tour supporting John Cale?

I’d never heard of John Cale, I didn’t know anything about Velvet Underground because I was never into American music at all and we were laughing at him calling him an old legend but we liked him, he was great. I loved the tour; I enjoyed it very much. I was surprised how well we went down, we got a great response everywhere we played and we did some big places most of which were sold out. The atmosphere at the shows was great. His fans came along and they were curious about us, they were open to new things because of the type of musician he was and he liked us too. We became good friends with him and we had some great sessions in the bars!

In May 1977 you went into the studio and recorded your first album in two days?

I think the album was recorded at the Olympic studios although I can’t remember too much about it. I think that the Who were in the studio next door and they were in the small studio whilst we were in the big one!

According to Jack you were paid £2 for recording the album?

As much as that? We weren’t that pleased with it and neither were NEMS. They had asked Pete Gage to produce it and he came and saw us at the Marquee. He seemed alright but he wasn’t into our type of music at all so he was wrong for the album but it turned out okay in the end.

If the Pete Gage mix could be found now would you be favour of it being released?

I didn’t realise his mixes weren’t released.

The released version was Matt’s remix with the vocals mixed lower.

Oh yeah that’s right, it was something Matt and I were really into at the time because the Stones obviously used to do that. We were into that style in the Brats as well. At the time it sounded right being mixed in that way.

With hindsight could the album have been better with a different mix?

Yeah but then again I’m not sure that it should have been better because it feels good now that the mix wasn’t better. It was right for the time that the mix should be raw.

What did you think of the finished product?

I didn’t like the cover. I liked the picture on the cover but I felt that it should have been a large one instead of all the smaller ones. It would have been more eye catching.

Whose idea was the cover?

Matt and Ken’s.

You re-recorded "Tumble With Me" and "Sick On You", minus a verse, for the Boys first album?

I only realised later that we had missed out a verse on "Sick On You".

So the missing out of a verse wasn’t deliberate then?

No although we never wanted any song to be longer than 3 minutes 20 seconds. That was it. We changed a few formulas because Andrew Loog Oldham had told me in 1971 that if you hadn’t got a hook line in 20 seconds no one would bother to listen. So we changed things a little bit; we made sure we didn’t have long intros and we also made sure that the chorus came very early in the song. We also believed that songs should be short.

Of those two songs which versions do you prefer?

Oh no doubt about it the Brats versions are better. I think that the Brats "Sick On You" is a classic, I really do. It’s brilliant.

Were you surprised that "First Time" didn’t chart?

Oh yes.

As I recall the Ramones had a top thirty with "Sheena Is A Punk Rocker" around that time

Did it get that high?

I think it got to Number 21 or 22.

The Ramones blew my brains out the first time I saw them. I thought they were absolutely brilliant. I also thought the Heartbreakers were great too.

Why did you edit "First Time"?

NI can’t remember. I always liked John’s songwriting. His simplicity is very good. The first time I heard it I thought it was great and I didn’t mind if they chopped it down, it was a great song.

Other than "First Time" and "Whatcha Gonna Do" Matt and yourself dominated the early days as songwriters.

Oh yeah absolutely. At that time we were thinking of John as a sort of George Harrison figure in that he’d get to do the odd song on an album.

What about Duncan?

Well as a songwriter he was learning and he was getting quite good. I don’t know why we didn’t record more of his songs although he didn’t write too many. I can’t remember how many of Duncan’s songs we rehearsed but I can’t really remember turning any down.

On the "Boys Only" sessions the Boys recorded a Duncan Reid song called "Coming To Take Me Away" and also a song he wrote with Matt called "Talk To Me". But of course you weren’t involved with "Boys Only".
What were your favourite tracks from the Boys first album?

There were some very good songs on the album and it’s very difficult to pick a favourite. I like "First Time" of course and "Cop Cars". Not many people liked "Cop Cars" but it was one of my favourites. In Japan last year it went down really well with the fans. I like "Box Number" too.

In your opinion what impact did Elvis’ death have on the Boys chances of success?

I really believe his death had a big impact. If he hadn’t have died we would have charted higher than we did because we were selling quite well. As far as I remember NEMS were distributed by RCA and they stopped pressing all other records apart from Elvis. I remember that Dave Edmonds was in the same position as us and he was as pissed off as we were. It was a few months before they started re-pressing other records and by that time it was too late. I am sure that we would have made a much greater impact if Elvis hadn’t have died at that time so I blame the bastard!

Around that time you went to the BBC to record your first John Peel session?

It was a very good session. John Peel was a great guy; he was such a pleasant person. We had a great time in the studio and we thought that those versions were better than the album versions. We recorded it one afternoon and we were very pleased with it.

The vocals were mixed higher than on the album?

Yeah, well we had nothing to do with it because they had their own technicians.

"Rock Relic" didn’t appear on the album?

Well we came up with the line "Not ready not ready, too young to go steady" which fit to "Rock Relic" so we used that instead.

Who came up with the idea of recording a Christmas single as the Yobs?

I think it was an idea that Andrew Matheson and I had. We wanted to record "Run Rudolph Run" and of course Andrew sang the vocals. I don’t know why it was called the Yobs; it could have been Andrew’s idea. Because of Matt’s studio and Ken Mewis the others became involved.

What can you remember about the "Worm Song"?

We weren’t recording any stuff and we needed a song for the b-side and it was easy and it was funny. And of course that became a classic and people sing that now. They don’t know it’s the Yobs or the Boys, they just sing it because it’s become a famous song and it’s extremely funny.

So why didn’t you release it as the Boys?

Because it wasn’t the Boys, it was Andrew. He was very involved with that recording and we wanted to keep it separate from the Boys. We just wanted to do a Christmas single.

You then went to Rockfield to record "Alternative Chartbusters"?

I can’t remember whether it was our first or second time in Rockfield when Black Sabbath were there. Rockfield was a place we’d heard about through Dave Edmonds and Ken booked it for us and NEMS paid for it. We had a great time and very much enjoyed recording there. They treated us really well when we weren’t used to anything. We were having great meals, getting drunk and having loads of fun so we enjoyed it very much.

The Boys had a reputation for being heavy drinkers and knowing how to enjoy themselves. Can you remember any amusing incidents?

Well I can’t recall too much because I was always too drunk!

What more than Jack and John?

Oh yes definitely. I really do think so. They were more slobs than I was because I was never into beer drinking! They were into beer drinking and had all these pints all the time whereas I was more into enjoying my whisky so I suppose I was a little better behaved than they were.

I think the production of "Alternative Chartbusters" was primarily Matt?

Well it was Matt’s project and mine I suppose.

How do you feel the album turned out?

I thought it was a very good album and I liked it very much. Also we had fun doing the harmonies, which became a trademark for the Boys and it worked really well. Matt and I had great fun with it creating Beatles-ish type of harmonies.

Your high harmonies are very much a trademark of the Boys sound?

Yes exactly and when I listen to it today it cannot be anyone else but the Boys. We had our own sound in the same sort of way that the Hollies did. It was great for us to discover that and it was very special in that type of way.

Did you never fancy having a go at lead vocals?

No but that was basically because of my English.

What are your favourite tracks?

"Brickfield Nights" and I also liked "Classified Susie". In a strange sort of way I liked "Sway" as well because that was fun and we really made a great video for it.

Tell us about the video you made for "Sway"?

I played trumpet and I had this greased back Elvis hairstyle. It was recorded at the same time as "Brickfield Nights". I wish the original video could be found somewhere. It was recorded by ITN and they usually store these things so it must be somewhere. They weren’t really videos though because there weren’t any videos at that time. The first real videos I made were the ones I did with Gary Holton.

Can you recall who made it?

No I can’t but the company was ITN and it was down in Soho.

How did you feel when both "Brickfield Nights" and "Alternative Chartbusters" failed to chart?

I was very very disappointed because I thought that album was really good. The songs were good and "Brickfield Nights" was a sure fire hit.

After "Alternative Chartbusters" what did you do to get released from NEMS?

We were really really pissed off and we went on strike. I was totally disillusioned and I went back to Norway on holidays or whatever and this friend of mine Bjorn Nessjoe had opened his own studio. He told me that he’d be interested in producing the Boys next album so we went over there and recorded "To Hell With The Boys". It was strange because we came over to Norway and all the musicians were very good. Punk was starting to break but we had got to the point where we were trying to be good as well so we got impressed with all these fantastic musicians. So that’s how the "Original Mix" came about. It didn’t suit the English market but it obviously suited the European market so it became two different things. On the "Original Mix" you can hear that it’s totally different. I’m not sure which is the better mix but obviously the English version was better at the time for the English market.
I think that one of the reasons we didn’t get totally pissed off was that we were quite successful on the continent. We were playing big places in Holland and France and we were the first punk band to play in France. When we played in Paris the posters all over just said "Punk Rock" and in little letters underneath it said "The Boys". The people just turned up to see punk for the first time in their lives. We also played The Paradiso in Amsterdam and we got a great response over there. We then became very popular on the continent which eased up the disappointment of us not making it in England.

You were involved in some ads slagging off NEMS?

Yeah we liked the advertising campaigns because we were more or less the brains behind it. Ken was brilliant of course and we were very disillusioned at the time because all our friends were making it really big.

Tell me about the legendary third album "Junk"?

I can’t remember much about it. What tracks did we record?

"Jap Junk", an earlier version of "See You Later" and the one you probably remember "Almost Persuaded".

"Almost Persuaded" was recorded with the Boys as a joke but I ended up recording it properly later with Gary Holton. It was really strange the country thing because I was into Gram Parsons. I was being a drunk with my neighbour and we went to see Tony Bennett and Dean Martin and everything and I was really into it, totally. Johnny Thunders came around because he loved it too. It was a strange period with regards to music for us especially because I was totally confused. I remember I went to the Royal Albert Hall with Lemmy and Sid Vicious to see Abba and we loved it. We thought it was fantastic. It was knockout.
I’m not sure if John and Jack meant it seriously but they said that they were into Jim Reeves, although I was never really into that sort of country. I thought that "Almost Persuaded" was such a great song and I was also getting really hooked on being in bars and I understood it. I was having problems with my girlfriend, I was down and drunk and everything so I understood the lyrics in country music and I started to pick up on it and I didn’t find it pathetic as everyone else did.

How do you think it sounds today?

Oh very funny but it was genuine. When I was with the Hollywood Brats we did "Crying Time" when we played the Marquee. The crowd couldn’t believe it, we were playing all these really rough rock songs and we started doing "Crying Time" because Andrew and I liked it. Nobody else knew what the hell we were doing.

You then recorded "Silent Night"?

I thought it was great fun. I was pissed off when they re-recorded those songs for the Yobs album. I played on all the singles but not on the album and they went and re-recorded them!

You then signed for Safari?

I can’t remember who introduced us to John Craig. I think he liked us and he wanted to do something with our type of band and that was great as far as we were concerned. We desperately wanted to get away from NEMS.

You then released "To Hell With The Boys" and Bjorn Nessjoe didn’t like Duncan’s vocals?

I was used to Matt’s vocals and I don’t know whether this is fair or not but he has always reminded me very much as a John Lennon-ish type of singer. Personally I felt that a John Lennon-ish voice suited the songs but that was as a songwriter not as a listener because I had no opinion on what the public would think. The intention of the songs suited Matt’s vocals better so I didn’t mind at all, I agreed that Matt should sing all the songs. Duncan was very inexperienced as a singer at the time but looking back at it I don’t mind whether Duncan or Matt sings them. I think it’s a question of charm and Duncan’s vocals have their own charm and they appeal to some people and Matt’s vocals appeal to others. Listening to it now I don’t really mind, I think they both sound good.

Which mix do you actually prefer?

I prefer the English mix as a historical piece of music but I prefer the Norwegian mix as far as standing the test of time. I can easily listen to the Norwegian mix today and think it sounds very good whereas the English mix sounds very 1970’s.

What are your favourite songs on the album?

Oh I like "Independent Girl" and "You Can’t Hurt a Memory"

You appeared live at the Safari Christmas Party in 1979 as both the Boys and the Yobs?

Oh yeah that was total chaos but great fun. A real historical gig with the stage being invaded as we were playing the Yobs set. It was knockout.

I believe that Safari filmed the gig?

Yes I believe so but I’ve never seen it.

What did you think of your Old Grey Whistle Test performance in January 1980?

Was it that late? I thought it was in the 1970’s.

15 January 1980.

NI remember Frank Zappa and Cozy Powell being on the same show. I think it went really well and I’m sure we went back to Cozy Powell’s place to watch the programme after we recorded it. We were really pleased because the songs and the mix were very good. The thing that impressed me most was Frank Zappa and his bodyguard with the burning cigarette behind his ear. Frank Zappa came up and shook John’s hand and said what a great song "Terminal Love" was and John was really knocked out.

Normally Duncan was the frontman but on that show you introduced "See You later"?

Did I. I can’t recall that.

What were your thoughts when you were invited to join the Ramones tour?

Fantastic, especially for me because they were breaking with "Baby I Love You" at the time. It was actually recorded by session musicians you know, another Phil Spector session. Anyway they didn’t know how to play it and obviously I urged them to play it because it was in the charts. They needed an organ on it so they asked me to play the organ and I also sang harmonies at the same time. I even introduced them to an A minor! They were totally knocked out because they thought I was such a great musician. We became great friends especially Joey, Johnny and myself. The other Boys got pissed off because I got to travel with them in their tour bus. At the time we had a roadie called Mark.

Mark Mason?

Yeah and at the end of the tour we had an offer to go on with the Ramones and Mark pulled out and I really didn’t know what to do. I was really down and out and drunk at the time. Me and Johnny had a talk about it and he said I could come to the Bronx and change my name to Casino Ramone and join the band if it worked out. I remember being sat in the Warrington pub and Mark said that he wasn’t going to go. So I thought that I couldn’t go on my own and just sit there in New York because the Ramones were strange at the time; they weren’t socialising even with each other. They were all with their girlfriends and whilst it was great fun on stage it was no fun off stage because they didn’t do anything.

A very different band to the Boys offstage then?

Oh very much so. I’d met Gary Holton who was in the Heavy Metal Kids and they were the regular house band at the Speakeasy. Laurie O’Leary wanted to be manager for one band only and so he chose the Metal Kids rather than the Brats. That was the first time I met Gary. He then started to go to the Warrington pub and Geir Waade introduced us. I called up Bjorn and Gary was a drunk who was totally disillusioned. I mean the Heavy Metal Kids were great live but they didn’t do anything so he was disillusioned and I said "let’s go to Norway and record an album, relax have a good time and get out of this circus". He agreed and we both went.

Before you left the Boys you recorded the BBC In Concert which was released by Vinyl Japan last year?

Yes I enjoyed that, the atmosphere was good and the songs were good. I also think that more or less at that time I was determined I was going to leave the Boys.

Why did you want to leave the Boys?

Gary and I had recorded an album in Norway although we didn’t get a deal until March 1981 but we recorded it in 1979 and we thought it was a great album. And then suddenly we got a deal with Polygram and the album went straight in the charts at Number 1 and went Platinum within a few weeks so we were becoming extremely big and I thought lets cash in on this.

At that time did you feel that the Boys weren’t going to make it?

Yeah I think so.

You did one last single with the Boys which was "You’d Better Move On"?

Everyone knew that it was going to be my last single.

You also recorded "Jimmy Brown" as a potential single?

Around that time?

Yes.

Which Boys album is it on?

The Boys didn’t release it. It first appeared on "Odds & Sods" in 1990.

It’s not on a Boys album! I didn’t know that. I thought "Jimmy Brown" was a great song. That’s disgusting, I can’t believe it. Pojat took it to Number 1 in Finland you know and of course I re-recorded it with Gary Holton.

Whilst you were with the Boys Matt and yourself decided to write something for the Eurovision Song Contest?

We thought why not we’d nothing else to do. At the time disco was big so we thought let’s just do a disco song. I vaguely remember the song.

Can you remember who performed it?

No I don’t remember but we have a demo of it, we did it with the Boys. I’m fairly sure I have that on a cassette.

After you left the Boys continued as a four-piece. How did you feel about that?

Fine, no problems. I went to the studio while they were recording "Boys Only" and I quite liked the album. I don’t think it deserves all the slagging it got. The recording of "Wonderful World" is terrible but some of the songs like "Little White Lifeline" are great. I also really liked "Let It Rain".

Didn’t you co-write that with Matt?

Yes.

They also recorded "The Yobs Christmas Album" without you. How did you feel about that?<